Black Stories/06: Taurean Jones

Justin James Lopez:
Hey, y’all welcome to the Amazon’s Black Stories Podcast, where we highlight the stories of black designers, researchers, and creatives from all around the world. I’m your host, Justin James Lopez and today I’m joined by Taurean Jones. Where he highlights the importance of allyship, mentorship, and representation, and how important it is to see yourself and people like you in the positions that you want to be in. Now, let’s hear his story. Taurean, thanks for joining me today on this podcast episode, this is the last episode of season one so thank you. We’re closing it out with your story here. So for the listeners, talk to us a little bit about where you are today. You’re now leading a team over at Google in design, but let’s talk a little bit more about where you sit there.

Taurean Jones:
Thank you for having me. So I’m a UX design manager within Google Cloud Platform, specifically leading a team of designers on a product called Anthos. So that’s within Google Cloud. It’s basically a multi-cloud solution for enterprise environments to be able to have a single pane of glass observability over their environment.

Justin James Lopez:
Nice, nice, nice. And you are leading a team now, but you didn’t start there, right? Did you always want to be a manager or what was that path like? Did you like wake up one day it’s like, you know what I wouldn’t really do is I want to lead people or was it something that you kind gradually realized was something important for you?

Taurean Jones:
I’ve actually had this conversation quite a bit with like the folks I mentor and especially as I try to like help them figure out what is their career path, are they going to stay the individual contributor path and then go to manager route? And I’m very blunt and candid with them about this transition. And so to answer your question directly, I didn’t wake up and say you know what I want to lead a team of designers in a complex space in Google Cloud.

I think that kind of my nature was okay I always wanted to grow and develop and I thought this was a natural path for it. And so I think it’s probably easier for a lot of designers to stay the individual contributor path and continue to hone their craft and their skill set. And they can climb the ranks that way, but management has a totally different skill set, and I’m really glad I did it because I think you become much more around it as management kind of forces you to see the lens... The totality of the business and the business needs. And so you see how you fit in and not only helping the business achieve its goals, but all also helping people. It’s very people-centric in how do you recruit and develop people? And I don’t think that I would’ve gotten that being an individual contributor, but it does like all things, new skills come with it’s growing pains and like understanding how to do this well is something that I’m really passionate about, but I would tell anyone wanting to step into management, it doesn’t come overnight.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. So that’s from a management space, right? Like you had to kind of grow into that. Now for the podcast specifically we’re here to talk about your design story, right? So like what’s the origin point is the question I like to ask, right? Is like what was the origin point in your life where you decided like, hey, you know what I want to do is I want to follow this creative bug that I have, and I want to make this something that I do for my life. Where was that in your life?

Taurean Jones:
If you go back, I’m from a small town in Princeton, West Virginia, Southern part of the state of West Virginia. And I remember growing up and I was like super fascinated with illustration and painting. And I did that for most of my like adolescence and into high school. And I distinctly remember a job shadowing assignment that kind of was part of requirements in my high school to go do some job shadowing. And everything on there was like not related to art or anything like that. The one that was somewhat close was that I got a chance to shadow a graphic designer. And I remember, I laugh as I tell this story. I remember going to this graphic design agency or business in Princeton, West Virginia and coming in, seeing this person moving text and shapes and pictures around the page.

And I was so fascinated and I still remember a question I asked him I was like, “Hey sir, you mean they pay you to do this? This is amazing.” You know what I mean? I was just so like blown away that like something that was so akin to what I would love to do and was close to what I was doing was a profitable profession. I totally changed the direction where I was going in college. I was actually a student athlete and I was going to go and compete at some different schools in track and field. And I picked my specific school because it was probably one of the only schools that I was looking at in attending as far as like athletics that had a graphic design program. And so I picked that program. I went into it and that is how I began immersing in the design profession and I went through my collegiate year studying graphic design.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. Wow. I think that there’s a really critical piece of exposure there where you don’t really see it all the time. Like I know I didn’t have an arts program growing up so I grew up in Camden, New Jersey. All of our arts programs were cut. All of our extra curriculum, unless it was like football or basketball or some sports related. And even then, like we didn’t have all of them like tennis or whatever, but like arts programs tend to be the first things cut. And I think a lot of it is a reflection of how we kind of value or devalue certain things. But then that exposure is what kind of caps the potential for people to make decisions like the one you made, right? Like it seems like it was really simple decisions. Soon as you saw it, it clicked for you, something clicked for you and you don’t really have many of those moments in life. How do you feel about that as far as like the exposure in the programs that are provided to youth specifically youth of color?

Taurean Jones:
There’s a saying, I don’t know if I made it up or I’ve just read it a couple times. You can’t reach what you can’t see. And I think there’s something about making it tangible to anyone who... A lot of young people they have no clue. I was just having this conversation with actually my uncle asking about what my nephews want to be. And a lot of people just don’t know, but your choices are... There’s so many choices you can become, but if you don’t even have awareness that this is like a profession you can pursue that it’s something that you can have a great living and be very passionate about.

There’s really no way and I think that in a, especially in the black community, I think the awareness of professions like design and where it can take you or user experience. I’m very passionate about bringing that awareness to our communities because information is power and it definitely, you know I tell you that, that that life changing decision of me seeing someone who’s doing graphic design, like, okay, I’m going to go this way. And I had a very similar on when I found out what user experience is. It was actually a black professor who showed me what user experience is. And if we don’t have that information, we can’t make these critical decisions that can alter the course of our past in life. Because often in these small decisions are life changing.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. Information changes situations, right?

Taurean Jones:
Indeed.

Justin James Lopez:
What type of work are you doing in that space to kind of or not even are you doing but like what will you recommend for people to get more exposure from a youth perspective? And this is a two prong question, right? So from a youth perspective, what mechanisms does the next generation do to get more exposure? And then on the other side, what is our responsibility as the previous generation to then expose the youth to these things?

Taurean Jones:
I think very different than I think when I was young. I think the youth have an access to abundance of information just because of we’re in the age of digital. And I think it’s, you know, maybe best for young people to really, instead of maybe waiting for it to come to them, like really kind of immerse themselves in multiple different areas and information gathering. This to see if one of these is a path that you want to take because I think that sometimes they wait till the last minute and then they choose something that they’re not really passionate about. The good thing is that you stand on one way door here, so you can pick something in life you’ll change professions many times, but I think it’s really great for young people to really whether be guidance counselors or just exposure and really dive in and see are any of these options or unlimited ones, the ones that going to fit my skillset.

And particularly, am I going to be passionate about, because there’s a lot of things you can pursue that seem good on paper and are admirable directions, but you may very passionate about, and you have to do this thing for a long time. And so just make sure that you love it. So I think there’s some onus there. And I think for leaders and institutions and companies, I just think that it’s paramount to be pushing the opportunities and going to these groups and making awareness of the opportunities that there are. Because again, if you don’t go only a small set of our population gets access to this information, all these opportunities. So you’re cutting off a group who would propel your business forward, or even propel your profession forward if they were just aware that they existed.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, I think that it’s a two-prong thing, right? Like you’re mentioning this idea that we have the access... Like the time space continuum has been collapsed by information, right? That by the Internet, by all these things that was like popping up when we were younger, but now it’s like, are these new generations they’re growing up, they don’t know a world without it. Right. So like, it’s really important. Like this is the world for them so it’s important for them to really utilize the resources the same way kind of you did, utilize the resources you had at the time, but they have like a lot more so, but it’s almost one of those like what is the long term effect of too much information, right? Like you kind of get this,

Taurean Jones:
It’s probably overwhelming.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. This paradox of choice almost. But, so that’s kind of why like I was like, well, what’s then the other side like? What is our charge is like kind of amplifying this voice? And I guess this is a part of it, right? These conversations that kind of amplify that specifically for the black community to see other people in this space, because let’s be honest, it’s not the most of diverse space, especially in corporate America. So like, when you think about that, how hard was it for you to break in? You were interested right from that moment and then you had that professor that you mentioned with UX, but when you think about shifting from where you started and you learned you went to school to actually jumping in fast forward, right. You’ve been at a number of companies, you’ve been at Amazon now you’re at Google. How hard was it to actually get into that space as a black man coming from that background and not really having all of the privileges that other people have in the community.

Taurean Jones:
I have often called what I had to overcome the Jackie Robinson effect. And you may have heard this before, but you look at Jackie Robinson, famous baseball player. He couldn’t just be good at one aspect of the game. He had to be good at, he had to be able to hit, he had to be able to, play the different positions and he had to be exceptional at it. And I sometimes look back at my early start, as you know, I got my start in big tech, but I always felt that I had to be extraordinary. I took a shot at some of them the big tech companies before I had a graduate degree and I never got a... And I’m been very candid here. I never got a callback and it wasn’t until, you know, I had a graduate degree that I began to get callbacks and ultimately some offers.

But then when I got into the field I noticed that a lot of my colleagues didn’t have some of the credentials that I had. And it really impacted me because I realized similar to my entire life, I always felt like I had to be exceptional and twice as good and that hurdle and that kind of I think that state it puts you in, of always being exceptional it can be exhausting. And so it propels yourself forward in your career, but I’ve always felt that I needed to be very good at what I did. And at some point the highest levels of the game, it’s very hard to be multiple levels of better than everyone else when you’re amongst the best in the world at whatever you do.

Justin James Lopez:
That’s a tough charge, right? I have heard that before like I think that growing up, you hear that like you have to be twice as good to just be in the room with many of these opportunities. But when you think about what that means, because Jackie Robinson just to follow the analogy not only did he have to do that, but what that did is that it also opened the door for a lot of other people.

Taurean Jones:
Indeed. Yes.

Justin James Lopez:
When you think of the work that you have done in the space and the journey that you’ve taken and the charges that you’ve taken in that space like just like kind of bum rushing dealing with it, even though you know it’s kind of unfair sometimes. How have you seen that really start to open door for others or how have you used that to open doors for others specifically like say within the DEI space for these companies?

Taurean Jones:

Definitely at this point in my career, I felt that as a design leader who happens to be black-

Justin James Lopez:
I love that, by the way, I love the way you said that, which is important. It’s important, a lot of people might miss that, but it’s important. Go ahead.

Taurean Jones:
Yeah. So as a design leader that happens to be black I’ve noticed more often than not that I’m sought out by really talented people of color for mentorship. And at first it was like I mean it happened before I got into higher levels leadership roles, but I see it more now. And then it’s also being able to recognize those talent and filter them into roles either opportunities I have on my team or push them to advocate for them for different roles and different companies if not my own and get them into the pipeline. And so there’s a certain amount of opportunity influence you have right there, but there’s also I take it very serious, because diversity is very important for our companies. But also I’m very passionate because I see myself and a lot of the people who reach out to me who are just looking for the opportunity to propel their careers.

And many of them may not need a specific opportunity, but they want coaching on a gap that they might have in their skill set in order to be able to propel their career forward. So I find it like just incredibly stimulating to be able to get on calls and see people’s portfolios and point out the things which, lessons learned, things I didn’t know about my own portfolio or things that they can do in order to tell their narrative and their story and their accomplishments and the impact that the projects that they’re doing. And these are some of the things like they teach you how to design they don’t teach you how to talk about how you led cross-function engagement, how you drove strategic business impact. These are things they don’t tell you, or they may be doing those things, but it’s not coming out under a portfolio. And so I find myself very passionate about those conversations and especially when there are people of color who, again, I see myself in them wishing that I maybe in my early days had the same person giving these tips of the trade.

Justin James Lopez:
So who did you have when you were kind of coming up in the design space? Like who did you have that you could look up to and kind of bounce these ideas and learn from?

Taurean Jones:
There’s very few black designers, I mean, we’ve had this conversation, but far a few black designers and that’s something I’m very passionate about increasing that. So the people who I did have were allies, a lot of them who saw what I was trying to do and I reached out to them and they made space for me. And I think that then you know, seeking mentors I’m huge proponent of mentoring and mentorship. I think that if you identify someone who wants to pour into you and uplevel you, you can get a lot out of those relationships. And early in my career, I had some fantastic mentors, people who look like me, who were administrators, who recognized that the importance of design in their organizations and helped propel me and then allies in leadership roles, or even who were in payrolls who saw some of my ambitions and just kind of helped me open up doors for me.

And that made a tremendous in difference in me developing as a designer and ultimately into a design leader. I’ll point out to this professor who I met when I was at Ohio State University, who basically showed me the entire field of user experience design. And I’ve always felt very indebted to that opportunity and that person, because I just had no clue. I had no clue that this was even a profession I could pursue. And I look at that with some of the youth, as far as I want them to know that these are opportunities here because someone opened that same door for me.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, you mentioned like being a mentor for so many other folks and you having mentors that a lot of them basically being allies, which is important, but how important is it to have mentors that you can connect to on not just the professional level, but that personal level of seeing yourself in the person that you are mentoring or being mentored by?

Taurean Jones:
It’s substantial. I recently I met a black director of design and I had a sit down conversation with him and there was something very powerful about seeing yourself and that role. And I think I minimized the impact of that, there’s so many people, other people have that. And so to see yourself in this role you aspire to be, and to have someone really asking like how can I help you basically get to where I am? It was actually when one of the most transformative moments in my career, because as a black designer in tech you are often the only one and you’re climbing the ranks and exceeding and trying to make an impact. But that’s somewhat of a solitary-like journey but then if you hit the crossroads of someone who is kind of at the pinnacle where you are in your career, and you can see it’s like I said earlier, you can’t reach what you can’t see.

To see that person and for you to see that this is actually possible, it’s transformative of how you kind of work in your everyday life now. You’re like, oh, you know, maybe I’ll make it there. Maybe I don’t, but you kind of remove the barrier of thought like whether it’s possible, because you can see it.. You see that tangibly that that person is there and for them to share with you the how, and to offer you words with wisdom and guidance, it’s very transformative. And I hope that, you know, 10, 15, 20 years down the line that that is more of a commonality rather than random examples of existence in design industry, or even like in tech. Because it definitely... It lit a fire within me and I can’t really explain it.

Justin James Lopez:
The reason why I asked is because I don’t want to minimize the importance of allies. I think it’s extremely important, but I think it’s similar to what you’re kind of going through is like, it’s hard to really explain it, but like there’s something that you get from being able to see yourself, right?

Taurean Jones:
Yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
It’s almost like a part of privilege that we don’t really think about. It’s like part of privilege is being able to see yourself doing whatever physically, right? I can physically see myself in all these things, which is it’s just not true for everyone. So it’s important. So you leave a lot of diversity initiatives at Google, right?

Taurean Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Justin James Lopez:
Talk to me a little bit more about that.

Taurean Jones:
So I’ve been at Google coming up on four years and there are so many DI initiatives going on across the company. And so I’ve just been really passionate about it and so there’s like multiple initiatives. I’ve been a part of multiple work groups, leadership, committees, and in those committees I get to be a voice and share my perspective. And I think that’s what’s probably needed is especially if you’re a designer, you know sharing your perspective about like how we can achieve these initiatives that are so important to company success and tech. It has been really enriching and awesome to be a part of. And to say that you’re a strategic driver in many of those, and you can see the impacts of them has really made my experience in big tech even more worthwhile.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. And in our previous conversation you mentioned also doing some work with UW right? So what exactly do you do with the UW, you’re a part the advisory board, I think?

Taurean Jones:
Yeah. So I sit on the University of Washington’s Information School Advisory Board. So we meet every couple months and leaders from across Seattle come together and they provide input on how to move that program along. So a lot of graduates from the information school, can be data scientists, design researchers, user experience designers, so a whole host of professions. So we basically input on strategic direction of the program.

Justin James Lopez:
So when you think of your contribution inside and outside of Google like when you mentioned like you’re kind of fitting in this role of like being able to help this strategic direction of some of these initiatives inside of the work that you do at your company, you’re also doing that for these programs at the university. What I’m hearing throughout the conversation is like is the theme is that’s really a big part of it is just being able to create spaces for the next generation by being able to guide the way that these larger corporations are actually guiding the programs and the exposure. Is that kind of like why you do that? And is that another mechanism to kind of give back, but in like a more third-party way?

Taurean Jones:
I don’t think so. I mean, I think it is pretty close. The program is growing dramatically. And so it’s your opportunity to basically as a leader in your field, provide input on how it can continue its growth. And it’s kind of a real world examples of how we’re doing, taking on some of the same challenges that the program is, or just giving diverse perspectives of the kind of problems we’re solving as design leaders and how you can prepare those students to be able to go out into the field and be prepared to face those same kind of challenges and overcome them, if that makes sense.

Justin James Lopez:
What are some thought for the random person that stumbles upon this podcast, this episode, and wants to know some tips that you gathered throughout your career like your experience to help them decide if design, whether it’s graphic, whether it’s user experience, if this creative space is right for them. And what are some things that they’re going to have to expect on that path?

Taurean Jones:
First of all, I want to underscore the importance of mentorship and finding the right people who can one, distill this feel down to you and be able to coach you on and the stepping stones in order to move forward into it. Because it is a little bit nebulous and challenging to navigate. And so what’s important is mentorship and finding people who can distill information down. I think that confidence embedding on yourself and saying that I can learn this and I can propel myself, and my career and putting yourself out there is a big part of it because it isn’t easy. I mean, nothing worth having is easy, so bet on yourself, mentorship, and also like relationships.

I think that you can be the most talented visual designer, graphic designer. You can be great at working with engineering and drive cross-functional engagement but relationships that span multiple companies will help you kind of navigate this complex environment. And so really doubling down your relationships and your networking, because you just never know where those paths are going across and were going to take you. I’ve moved from Microsoft to Amazon into Google, and I’ve crossed paths with people from all of those companies very often. And it’s kind of profound to see it and how those relationships pay it forward for you and help you with the challenges that you face and the next opportunity that you have.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, so it’s not just about like shaking hands, right? I heard this years ago and it stuck with me they said, it’s not about what you know, it’s not about who you know, it’s about who knows you. And I thought that was... It really hit me hard because I said, I don’t care if you have Michael Jordan’s phone number, if he’s not going to pick up when you call and what does it matter? So the importance of fostering that relationship is important and that’s what you’re mentioning. It’s like it’s not just like, oh, well, you’re at my company now. So I’m going to be friends with you now then I move to a different company, and then I just need to start a whole new network.

It’s about fostering that network as you grow, which is a beautiful gem to leave with these young people. I feel like we’re really transactional. I see a lot of really transactional interactions in society now out because of just the nature of things. And it’s really important to take the time to maintain those relationships. Because you never know this, you know, this peer may be a director one day, right? You never know.

Taurean Jones:
Yeah. And like very specific example I have is I work with a really amazing director of design runs at Microsoft and she helped really propel my career for it. And I left there and went to Amazon and worked there for years. And then the same director had moved to Google and reached out to me and about an opportunity. And so it’s like and I had maintained that relationship with her and you know I’m a huge fan and advocate for her because she opened up those doors for me. So it talks, but it’s squarely when we talk about as far as maintaining those relationships and not being transactional. Because you never know whether it’s your director of design or it’s your peer designer who works next to you.

You never know who those people are going to become and if you foster those relationships, have integrity and character and you develop those, they may very well reach back to you and want you to come work with them again or likewise, which you know has happened at a lot of my recruiting people who I have worked with who I’ve developed really strong relationships with, they want to work with me again. And so fostering those because you just, again, like you never know who those people are going to become. I’ve seen that from even when I was in my undergrad like some people who I had developed relationships with. I mean, it’s mind-blowing who those people became and so if you foster relationships you can leverage those, but also you can help them, they can help you and that’s what it’s all about.

Justin James Lopez:
Love to see it. Well, Taurean thank you for your time today. Thank you for your vulnerability and your honesty and thank you for telling your story.

Taurean Jones:
Thank you for having me. It’s been fantastic.