Black Stories/24: Tyra Nicole Dumars

Tyra Dumars:
It is not about comparing myself tit-for-tat with what they’re doing, but it is what can I take from what they are doing? Did they have a really good attitude? Did they just get up and do it? How are they approaching life, when it comes to certain things? And are there things that I should be borrowing from that? I really try to not be in the comparison race, because then it’ll be a race to the bottom. And I’m not really into being on the bottom.

Justin James Lopez:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Amazon’s Black Stories, where we highlight the stories of Black designers, researchers, and creative minds from all around the world. I’m your host, Justin James Lopez. And today, I’m joined by Tyra Nicole Dumars, as we talk about being open to failures and trusting your intuition. Let’s hear her story.

So Tyra, thanks again for joining us. I am really excited about this conversation, and I want to start with you just introducing yourself to the audience here.

Tyra Dumars:
Awesome. I’m glad to be here. My name is Tyra Nicole Dumars. I am a senior UX manager at Amazon. I’ve been in graphic design, probably telling my age a little bit here, but 18 plus years. And it is something that I have enjoyed the entire time. Worked at a few startups in the advertising world, agency world, then moved into tech. And who knows where I will go from here, but I’m excited to see.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, yeah. I’m really excited to learn more about where this goes from here, but I want to start with how we got here. You said 18 plus years, right?

Tyra Dumars:
Yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
And that’s your journey in design.

Tyra Dumars:
Yeah, fresh out of college.

Justin James Lopez:
How did we get from a young girl growing up, to deciding, “Design is what I want to do,” to getting to the point where now you can help other people in their design journey?

Tyra Dumars:
A big question.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. Let’s take bite-sized pieces.

Tyra Dumars:
Bite-sized. So starting out ... Is design what I always wanted to do? No. I originally thought that I was going to go to medical school. I wanted to be a doctor. Design, at the time, was a thing, but how are you going to make money at that and survive, and really make a career out of something like that?

But started out young, taking a lot of illustration and drawing classes. And I really liked that. And around that time, the Adobe products were also coming online. So then just how do you take some of that creative energy, when it comes to drawing, and then turn that into a digital art form? So that’s where it all started for me. High school, college-esque. And it was something that I really enjoyed doing. So it was something that, once I did go to college, I decided to major in graphic design.

So after doing a little bit of research on what are these programs used for, how do people then take them and turn them into a career, or what type of careers actually use these tools, I happened upon graphic design. And it was a study that was offered at the college that I attended at the time, which was LSU in Louisiana. And I was like, “Okay, I’m going to give this a try.” So I signed up for all of the relevant classes related to graphic design. And I really enjoyed them as a study, and learned how to hone my craft in that area.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. You went to LSU for undergrad?

Tyra Dumars:
I went to LSU for undergrad. Also attended Northwestern. Not in Chicago, but there’s one in Louisiana too. Attended that for a year for undergrad as well, then moved to New York and attended Pratt, in Manhattan, to get my master’s.

Justin James Lopez:
Are you from Louisiana, or you just went to school out there?

Tyra Dumars:
I am from Louisiana, born and raised. Go Saints.

Justin James Lopez:
Born and raised. Nice, nice, nice. So design. You get to college, you have this passion, and then you go, “Graphic design, I’m all in. I’m all on graphic design.” Where did the medical school dream or thought process die for you?

Tyra Dumars:
It died-

Justin James Lopez:
Or did it?

Tyra Dumars:
... My sophomore year. Well, I started out in the math and sciences, because I was really good at math and science in high school. So of course, you think, “Okay, well maybe you should major in that in college.” So my freshman year, I took ... It was all math and sciences, and of course you have to do a humanities or arts elective.

So I was like, “Okay, I’ll just take one. I’ll take a drawing class. It’s something that I really like, that I’m into. It’ll be an easy class.” It was a class that I got from 6:00 to 9:00 in the evening, so that just shows you how much I actually enjoyed it. And after taking that class, I had so much fun that I actually changed my major the next year. I was like, “I really do enjoy this, and this is something that I could see me doing for the rest of my life. Something in this vein.”

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. Was it a pull factor from the arts, or was it a push factor away from the work in the-

Tyra Dumars:
It was a pull factor to the arts. I think learning about just some of the history of design, how it was around since the beginning ... When you think about cave drawings and things like that. It’s just always been around. So the more that I learned about that. Like I said, also the technology play, some of the tools that were coming online at the time, they seemed fun to learn. I actually just enjoyed it a lot. I had a lot more fun in those arts and design classes than I did in those science classes. It came easier to me and fed my passions, so I was like, “This is probably what I was meant to be doing.”

Justin James Lopez:
That’s really powerful, for a number of reasons. I think it’s really difficult for people to wrap their heads around that concept of feeding your passions, when a lot of people, they just spend so much of their time deciding to just feed their wallet. And then the thing is they can intersect. And they oftentimes do. When you really feed into your passion, they oftentimes do intersect. But it’s very difficult to see that from the onset.

And I guess my question here is when you were getting started and feeding your passion, really jumped into this space, and saying, “This is what I want to do,” what were some of the trials that you ran into? I will say that I was looking over some of your information on your website and your portfolio. There’s a lot on there. Everyone, go check it out. But one thing that really stood out was just this really simple quote. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom, I don’t know if it’s your grandmother or just a grandmother that you met, but it was like, “Nothing beats a failure, but a try.”

Tyra Dumars:
Yes.

Justin James Lopez:
So talk to me about that.

Tyra Dumars:
Life mantra.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah.

Tyra Dumars:
It was my grandmother. She had a lot of ... Thelma-isms is what I like to call them. And the saying just goes all the way back to the beginning, like we were talking about before, on the sciences versus the arts. Just try it. The worst case scenario, you can come back to the sciences, but follow your passion on the arts and see where that gets you.

And that has followed me throughout my career. When I graduated from college, I was like, “I want to move to New York, and I just want to see what I can make of it. I’m going to give myself the summer.” I moved in July. And I gave myself until August, and I was like, “Just see what happens. What’s the worst that could happen? All else fails, you can come back home, but give it a try.” Moved to New York, stayed the summer, ended up landing a job the last weekend. My flight leaves on the 26th. Job interview, job landed, 23rd.

And I stayed in New York 13 years after that, still following design, different jobs at different agencies, moving from graphic design to UX, doing freelance projects, still in design, with people that I was able to meet in different facets. So being involved in social circles. I am in a sorority, so just what can I do, design-related, to help support them? Maybe their website, building out some apparel or things like that. Then also in my daytime job, designing ads. So it was all just trying a bunch of different things to see what would stick in the end, but also making sure that I enjoyed the projects that I was working on throughout that time.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, yeah. What sorority?

Tyra Dumars:
I’m a Delta.

Justin James Lopez:
Oh, nice. Nice. I’m an Omega.

Tyra Dumars:
Oh, cool.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, we’ll have to talk about that later. No, so that’s nice. There’s a lot of that betting on yourself, is what I’m hearing.

Tyra Dumars:
Yeah, yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
And maybe the answer is you always had that, but for the listeners here, how do you get to a space where you’re comfortable with making that decision when you don’t have all the answers? And even for you, you were shifting from believing that you were going to be a doctor. And then you take this course, and you go, “Actually, no. I’m doing this whole thing. And I’m going to double down, triple down. I’m going to move to New York now. I’m going to do this. I’m going to try to start a life here.” On your way back, basically ... You said right at the back end of your time there, you’re like, “Now I nailed a job,” how do you continue to bet on yourself, when there’s so much uncertainty around the work that you’re doing?

Tyra Dumars:
So at least for me, I am a very spiritual person, so that keeps me very grounded. And I know everybody doesn’t get this, but for me, I also have a strong foundation in my family, which, to the point that you brought up earlier about the quote, my grandmother is telling me, “Nothing beats a failure, but a try.” She obviously told her daughter that, who is my mother, and then therefore my mother is also providing me with that solid foundation.

So if I can think about it, and I do feel something on the inside of me that is telling me, “Hey, give it a try. What is the worst that could happen?” Even at my current age, the worst that could happen today is that me and my family have to pick up and move home with my dad. And if it wasn’t my dad, me and my family would have to pick up and go live with my sister. But knowing that there’s just a fallback for me ... And I know everybody doesn’t have that, so I am thankful that I do. It just freed me to open up and try different things, and be open to trying different things. Some things I just would not have been exposed to if someone hadn’t mentioned it.

Coming to New York, I had a friend who had just moved here. That wasn’t on my radar. But when she moved here, I was like, “Oh, well, if she can move to New York and chase her dreams, then is it possible for me to also move there?” So I think also being able to see. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be in close proximity. She happened to be my friend. But outside of friends, maybe you saw somebody else that was doing something that you admired. If they can do it, then I can at least give it a try.

Justin James Lopez:
I love that. I think that I want to sit with this for a second, because this is something that I’ve actually struggled with myself. There’s a quote that says, “Comparison is the thief of joy.” And it can sometimes be very difficult to wrap your head around. I do also, though, agree with ... What you’re saying is sometimes you just have to realize that you’re not the only one on a journey, and you’re not the only one taking chances. You’re not the only one that’s capable of changing, adapting, growing in these different spaces.

And you look around, you can see that’s the benefit of it. But then do you also have that double-edged blade, where sometimes too much comparison can make you almost feel crippled by the idea of consistently ... On the topic of failures. The issue is when you use comparison in this way, where you’re comparing your bloopers to someone’s highlight reel, where that can then feel not just overwhelming but defeating. How do you balance that?

Tyra Dumars:
I’m going to say cafeteria-style. I pick and choose. I pick and choose based on the things that are important to me. In the back of my mind, I’ve always had this dream. Some things are not always clear in that dream. So I wanted to be in graphic design, and I wanted to work at an ad agency. For a very long time, that was the dream. Did I say a specific ad agency? No. Did I say a specific city? No, I didn’t. But as I consume things around me within the world and things are happening, you can ... Not necessarily compare yourself, but you can look at what other people are doing, and maybe seek inspiration, I’ll use that, from what they are doing.

Justin James Lopez:
I like that.

Tyra Dumars:
So I am not going to say, “Well, this person has accomplished A, B, and C. They went to New York. They got a degree from NYU.” And then they happened to be working at HBO, doing all of these great things in design, and producing shows. Well, that is great for them. And I am not them. And I wouldn’t want to copy, because I think whenever you get into comparing yourself to somebody, are you trying to copy everything that they’re doing? Or are you trying to put your own spin on things and live your own life?

And in that case, it is not about comparing myself tit-for-tat with what they’re doing, but it is what can I take from what they are doing? Did they have a really good attitude? Did they just get up and do it? How are they approaching life, when it comes to certain things? And are there things that I should be borrowing from that? So I really try to not be in the comparison race, because then it’ll be a race to the bottom. And I’m not really into being on the bottom.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. I like that. It’s a race to the bottom. I like that inspiration piece, transitioning the way you talk about it, the way you view it. It’s almost like ... Don’t be a follower, be a student. Learn from what people are doing, the good and the bad, and then you can create a version of that that works for you.

I think that’s a really interesting way to look at it, considering it really is easy to fall into it sometimes. I think that sometimes we overestimate, underestimate how easy it is to just fall into that comparison trap. And then we almost defeat ourselves in that space, but if you look at it as, well, it’s just about looking at for inspiration in the work that other people are doing, that’s really helpful. When did you come to that conclusion? Because I find most people’s journeys are like roller coasters. So when did you come to that conclusion, and what were some of the toughest lessons you had to learn along your journey, I guess?

Tyra Dumars:
I don’t know if I can actually pinpoint it. It could be three months ago. It could be yesterday. So I don’t know if I can actually pinpoint it, but I can say it’s just been my attitude for as long as I can remember. And I think all of my friends will tell you that about me, that I’m going give it a try, especially if it’s something that I really want.

And then how do you deal with failures? There’s a lot of them. For example, I was at LSU, really wanted to ... And there, you have to apply to get into their school of graphic design. Applied several times, epically failed every single time. But it was still something that I really wanted to do. So I’m not going to let that stop me. Now, what other school can I go to, where I am going to be able to continue to do the thing that I want to do? Which is how I ended up at Northwestern. Was probably supposed to be there all along. It was the school my parents went to, but I wanted to go somewhere else, so I had to give that a try, and then ended right back at the family school. So again, multiple lessons and examples in that to all that I’ve been talking about, but just where I ended up.

Also, when it came to jobs and life and doing different things, there’s a lot of doors that don’t open for you. And I think at least for me, it was important for me to understand that there is a reason and a season to every single thing. I might not have needed it right then, because I may have squandered it at that point. I might not have been in the mental space to handle all of the things that would’ve come with the opportunity at that time. So I embrace those as everything happens for a reason. Again, another one of those grandma-isms is just like, “What is for you will be for you, and nobody can stop that.”

And there have been little confirmations for me along the way that kind of support that thinking. So when I got to Amazon, one of my mentors there, she told me once ... She was like, “Somebody has your yes, you just have to go find it.” And although it’s said in a different way, that basically is the same as saying that what is for you will be for you. You just have to keep on your path and pushing for the things that you want in life.

Justin James Lopez:
Somebody has your yes. You just have to go find it. I really like that. I’m taking that, for sure. So when it comes to your journey, 18 plus years going on 20 years in design, what’s something that you know now that you think would’ve been a lot more helpful if you had gained it when you were earlier in your career?

Tyra Dumars:
That’s a tough one. I think the older I get, the more I realize that everybody is doing the best that they can with the knowledge that they have, and there is no secret. I think when I was younger, I used to think, “Oh, once I have X number of years of experience, I’ll be able to figure everything out. It’ll just come to me.” And that is true on certain things. The things when I was 20, yes, those things just come to me now. But now, there’s another set of things in my new age with my new experience that I don’t know. So it is really never-ending.

And I think that had I known that from the beginning, I probably would’ve had even more confidence in just the way that I was moving throughout applications or jobs or the way that I showed up in different spaces, because nobody really knows what they are doing. Everybody is just trying to figure it out, just like you. But just because you are younger in your career, you may feel like you’re behind the eight-ball, and it’s just not true.

Justin James Lopez:
I like that. For me, I have a version of that, that I have in my head, where it’s like ... I try to explain it to people, playing the ... I don’t even know if kids play this anymore. But remember Clue? The game, Clue?

Tyra Dumars:
Yes. Yes.

Justin James Lopez:
So really, that’s what you’re doing. Especially in corporate America, you got a bunch of imposters trying to convince everyone else that they’re not the ones that made the mistake.

Tyra Dumars:
How can you label it imposter syndrome, if this is everybody’s natural ... This is just how everybody is, so how can you ... I do still wrestle with that to this day. And I don’t even know where that came from, but we try to give everything labels. But if that’s the case, then everybody is experiencing imposter syndrome. And then is it really imposter syndrome if everybody has it, or is this just the way that we are, or the way that we should exist in the world, or the way that we should show up? And then if everybody acknowledges that, then does it just go away? Does it just go away if it’s not something that we’re trying to label?

Justin James Lopez:
No, that’s fair. Or we got to create a new one. Some people experience confidence syndrome.

Tyra Dumars:
Yeah. I know. They will come up with something else, I’m sure. But yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. Everyone’s winging it, right? And everyone’s pretending like they’re not winging it, and you’re trying to convince a room full of other people that are aware that they themselves are winging it, that no one’s winging it. And it’s like nobody really believes it, but nobody really doesn’t believe it, either. So it’s always really interesting to see that. And then when someone finally has that vulnerability moment to go, “Yeah, I don’t know,” then everyone else goes, “Oh, thank god, because I didn’t know either.”

Tyra Dumars:

Somebody said it. Yeah. Somebody said it.

Justin James Lopez:
Nobody knew.

Tyra Dumars:
Thankfully somebody said it, yes.

Justin James Lopez:
So I actually pride myself in having become that person in that room, whenever I go around. I have some answers. And honestly, I don’t even know if they’re the right answers. And then there’s some questions that I have no answers to, and that might be the right answer. And that’s made it a lot easier for me to navigate not just my career, but in general. Create that balance between the work that I do, the passions that I have, and then just the life that I lead outside of all of those things.

When it comes to all of the gems that you’ve been dropping, what’s the one thing that you know without this one ... And it might be the failure, because I see there’s a lot of themes in that. But what’s the one thing that ... This is the thing that you always give people as a mentor, as a leader, to help them move in their career? Or maybe in their personal life?

Tyra Dumars:
Oh my gosh. It’s going to be the try thing.

Justin James Lopez:
The try thing?

Tyra Dumars:
It is, because I think, at least for me ... And I do still do this. Sometimes you just get in your own head. A lot of the people that I’ve mentored, sometimes they’ve thought about all the scenarios. What if this or this could happen, or this thing could ... And then when I ask, “Well, what is the next step? And what is actually preventing you from taking that next step?” It’s almost crickets. There’s nothing preventing you from taking the next step except for fear. So if that’s the case, let’s just get over that hump, and let’s just get out there and do it.

I really like to be people’s biggest cheerleader. Leaning on that same thread, if my friends come and they want to start a job, somebody wants a promo, somebody is ready to ... It could be the seed of an idea. Somebody’s like, “I had this dream and I thought about this product that I could launch.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, that is an amazing idea. Here are some of the cool things that you could do. And you could start out maybe small, with an Etsy shop, if it’s something handmade or something creative. Or if you want to get into something bigger, how are you thinking about angel investors? And do I have any friends that are angel investors that could potentially get you a plug?” I am going to be the person that is like, “Let’s get over this first hump. And let’s try to see if we can squash whatever fear you might have about taking the next step in whatever path. Whether it’s your personal life, whether it’s your professional life, let’s just give it a try.”

Justin James Lopez:
In all of your time ... I got to ask this. And this is kind of a callback to the beginning of the conversation, but it just went through my mind, do you ever think about going back and picking up medicine again?

Tyra Dumars:
No.

Justin James Lopez:
Has that ever been a thing for you?

Tyra Dumars:
That’s a definite no.

Justin James Lopez:
You were like, “No.” Even-

Tyra Dumars:
No. I sometimes exhaust myself with ... Because there’s the design side of me, but even in my personal life, I am very much still a creative. So I am all into DIY, crafty-type things. And it’s something that tires me sometime, but with a nap or two, then I am right back into it.

Justin James Lopez:
Not with a nap or two.

Tyra Dumars:
I’m right back into it with being creative at work or being creative at home. It is literally something that I just really enjoy doing on both sides. So I don’t know. I mean, I lucked up that I also get to do it at my job, I guess is where it is.

Justin James Lopez:
I say that, because I think sometimes ... There’s always some people, on their worst days, they go, “Maybe I should have just done the other thing.” And it sounds like even on your worst days, you just take a nap, right?

Tyra Dumars:
Yes. On worst days, I walk away from the current situation, because I just know that this is something that I’m supposed to be doing. Now the question is have I put myself in the right environment? Because I know what I’m supposed to be doing, but where am I putting my hands to work? Is this the right company? Is this the right project? Is this the right group of people for me to be surrounding with? Because I know what my talents are and I know where my strengths are, so it’s just a matter of have I put them in the right place.

Justin James Lopez:
What criteria have you created in your life to help you answer that question?

Tyra Dumars:
I think the first one is have I done this before? So I do like living on the edge, in addition to giving things a try. Is this something that’s new to me? Because I do like to learn new things. I like dealing in ambiguity, so there are some things where I could do them with my eyes closed. And when I think about endeavors that I might embark on, is this something that I could do with my eyes closed? If yes, then is it for a friend or family member? If yes, then we might go down that path with that project.

But on the other side, when I think about my own personal growth, it’s more so is it something that I’ve done before? No. Does this scare me? Yes. Can I at least take the first step? Yes. Okay, I’m going to keep going with it. Then, in true fear fashion, I might start ... Who can I reach out to to help me get to the next step, or pull me over into the next thing, or help me get to the next step or next phase of this project?

And I’ll reach out to my mentors. And then most of them are champions of mine, so they’ll be like, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.” Or some of them will say no, and I will take that counsel into consideration. But if I get a couple of yeses, then I’m going to go ahead with that project. The first two being ... Is this something that I’ve done before, leaning into the no area, and then does this scare me, and could I grow from that? And if the answer to that is yes, then I’m going to probably lean into that area too.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. People say, “If your dreams don’t scare you, you’re not dreaming big enough.”

Tyra Dumars:
Yes. Yep.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. No, I follow that as well. How often do we just fall into the safe answer because we’re afraid to ask the risky question or take the risky path? And you’re like, “I don’t know how that’s going to end.” Well, you technically don’t know how this one’s going to end either.

Tyra Dumars:
Yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
You just think you do.

Tyra Dumars:
And I don’t want to have any regrets. To your earlier question, I don’t want to look back and say, “I wish I would’ve done X,” especially when there was nothing really preventing me from doing X, except for me. I can’t trust myself in that situation.

Justin James Lopez:
Well, yeah. I find that that’s probably one of the hardest things to get over, from a regret perspective, is when you’re going through the cycle in your brain and you’re thinking, “I stopped myself from that. There wasn’t anything, it was just me.” And then you got to hold that out. You have to accept that. And there’s nothing else you can do. So that’s something that I think terrifies me as well, that idea of ... Give it a shot. I will allow life to humble me before I humble myself without trying.

Tyra Dumars:
Yes. Yep.

Justin James Lopez:
Thank you for the time, Tyra, and this has been an amazing conversation. And I wanted to, again, thank you for joining us. You dropped a lot of gems for the audience here. And I hope that they pick them up, they sit with them, because I think that there’s a lot of them that, at the surface, are important, but when you sit with them a little bit deeper, I think they can impact people’s lives really powerfully. So thank you.

Tyra Dumars:
I definitely take them as words to live by. And I know sometimes they can seem like just sayings, but when you really internalize some of it, and when it’s tough and you’re in there with your own inner thoughts and you think about it and you choose yourself over something that may scare you, hopefully you’ll feel good about it.