Black Stories/33: Imani Ellis

Imani Ellis:
When in the beginning, selfishly, I was kind of in service to myself. I was like, “I want to build a community. This is for me.” And I’ve realized that CultureCon is not for me. This is actually for us.

Justin James Lopez:
Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Amazon’s Black Stories, where we highlight the stories of black designers, researchers, and creative minds from all around the world. I’m your host, Justin James Lopez. And today, I’m joined by Imani Ellis as we discuss how we can take a creative outlet and turn it into a career. Let’s hear her story.

Well, thanks again, Imani, for joining us on this episode of Black Stories. I’m really excited. I know we have had a few conversations before, but this is the first time that you joined the actual show. So I’m excited for the actual listeners and the audience to learn more about your story. But let’s start with maybe having you introduce yourself to the audience.

Imani Ellis:
For sure. And Justin, thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here. I’m Imani Ellis. I am an Atlanta native, the daughter of two preachers, and the founder of CultureCon and The Creative Collective NYC. And we’re the biggest platform for black and brown creatives, really providing community and resources and vulnerability to them so that they know they’re not alone as they’re navigating the space.

Justin James Lopez:
Vulnerability is the part that just stuck out to me there. When you think about not just creatives, but the black community, vulnerability I think naturally is something that you don’t really bring into that conversation naturally, especially when you think about careers and stuff like that. Why was that so important with the work that you do?

Imani Ellis:
I mean, so much of the work that I do, I think, is defying historical context. And you think about the context of why black people couldn’t be vulnerable. It was to protect ourselves. And so even as you go back to trying to assimilate to a culture, trying to be more of the culture that you’re not necessarily leading it at the time, I think we were told to hold our breaths, to be smaller, to be seen, to not be heard. And that gets passed down. Parents trying to protect their children. It’s the reason why. It’s like, “Do not be too loud. Do not be too big.” But I think we also have to realize that some of the things and the traditions that were meant to historically protect us, we’re now in different times, and so we have to do a lot of relearning.

And so for me, I realized that my natural state was to shrink in these rooms and to be seen and not heard. And what I realized was I wasn’t going to get very far being that kind of skeleton version of myself. I was listening to ideas, and every voice is valid, but I was like, “I don’t know if I agree with that.” And so finally, I realized, you know what? My point of view is absolutely valid. And I remember the first time I spoke up in a corporate meeting and everyone being like, “Well, that’s a great idea.” And me being surprised. And finally over time, validating that, are all my ideas great? Of course not. But that I do have a point of view and that no one in that room is more qualified to share their point of view than I am.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, that’s very valid. I think that that’s one of the things that I learned really early on. Life gets a lot easier when you stop putting people on pedestals because everything that you admire about the world was created by somebody no greater than you. And that’s what I gathered from your perspective as well is you’re learning this on your own, this natural inclination to go, “Oh, well, how could I?” When it’s like, “Well, everyone that has done all of these amazing things is literally the same person as me.” You say this is your first moment, which is interesting. Because I love these origin point conversations where it’s like, I imagine you’re nervous, like, oh, heart’s beating, and then you finally go, “No. I have ideas as well.” What was it that actually prompted you to finally then speak up after feeling like maybe it wasn’t welcome.

Imani Ellis:
It just was this voice. A question was asked, I think, on what we should do next. And it was silent. And I love to think back to Esther. It’s a biblical story of a woman who was put in this position. And the reason I love this story is, she’s an orphan. She comes from a very poor community, and now she’s the queen. And she has an opportunity to say something because she has a very unique point of view. And I realized that I had assumed that all these parts of me that made me so different were the parts that I should leave at home.

And in that moment, I was like, “Wait, I have a world view different than them. I’m from the south. I’m a black woman. We’re talking about a show filled with black women from the south. I’ve got a unique point of view that actually makes me perfectly equipped to answer this question.” And so it almost was like this fire in my chest that was like, “Just say it.” And I just said it. And I gave a recommendation of how we should strategize around this show featuring black women. And everyone was like, “That’s a great idea.” And it was them being in awe. It was me being in awe.

But I think, a lot of times, our confidence comes from our competence. The more you’re able to show that you’re really good at something and that you actually have a valid stance and there’s receipts for it, the more confidence becomes like a muscle. And you’re like, “Again, doesn’t mean we’re going to do everything that I say, but let me say something because I’m in the room. Let me have a point of view.”

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, our confidence comes from our competence. You’re just dropping gems here. I’m going to have all these shirts made, by the way. I’m just going to be walking around.

Imani Ellis:
Absolutely.

Justin James Lopez:
You mentioned this moment, was this when were at NBC?

Imani Ellis:
Yeah, yeah. And I was very junior. So that also was a part of it. I was a coordinator right out of college.

Justin James Lopez:
So if I recall correctly, you’re at NBC, and then you’re there for a good amount of time. But this is also the same space where you started to decide, “Well, I want to do something else,” and you started The Creative Collective.

Imani Ellis:
Yeah. A little bit of a gap. Yeah, absolutely.

Justin James Lopez:
Talk to us about The Creative Collective. What was this? What was the origin and why was this so important for you at that point in time?

Imani Ellis:
I was in my dream job, and very happy, very challenged, very like I can’t believe I work at 30 Rock. But I was very hungry for community. And my first Broadway show I ever saw was Rent. My mom took me to see Rent. We had no idea what it was about, but we were like, “They pay rent?” And what? Right, wrong.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah.

Imani Ellis:
But it’s one of my favorite musicals because I really think about the community that they had within each other and just this idea of idea sharing. And I was desperate for that. I felt it was a very lonely place, New York. And I was just like, that’s very ironic. There’s millions of people here. But I don’t know where I go to find a photographer for this shoot I want to do over the weekend, or I don’t know where I go to figure out what rates are for creators. And I knew though that I knew a lot of individuals who inspired me. And so Justin, I invited them to my one bedroom apartment in Harlem. It was 10 people. And to gamify it, really make it a little bit more playful, the rule was that they could each bring one person that they could vouch for.

And I cooked for them. I’m Southern. I welcomed them. And when they all got over, the prompt was, what are you working on? It doesn’t have to be work. Now, to a New Yorker, they’re like, “Well, what else are we talking about?” Right? Because we were so used to networking in a transactional way. But we found ourselves, some people were working on getting over a bad breakup. Some people were working on filing their taxes. And that was how the Creative Collective was born was out of, you actually are not expected to have all the answers here, so you should ask whatever has been at the top of your heart and someone in this room is going to pick that up and have an answer for you.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. That’s really interesting when you think of just that initial prompt of, “Well, you can bring one person, but you have to be able to vouch for them.” It almost creates a new social experiment where you’re then looking at your network and really questioning like, “How many people in my network are really for me?” Because naturally when you said that, I was like, “Who would I bring?” I don’t know who I would bring to this. And then what roles do people play? So you have this initial prompt of... Which I love that origin. I didn’t know that origin as far as getting inspiration from different spaces, Rent being one of them, that concept of community and really building that for yourself. How did it go from being 10 people with plus ones to everything that it is now?

Imani Ellis:
I think the secret was that I was not trying to start a business, actually. I was trying to build a community. And I think what I realized is, I wasn’t the only one. And anytime you can find a problem where the answer is you’re not the only one, you’re going to find a really strong chance that you can scale it. And so that’s what happened is people were like, “Wait. I’m not the only one who feels imposter syndrome even though I’m in a senior level position at work. I’m not the only one who doesn’t know how to navigate wearing braids in a corporate space.” And these things isolated can feel like, “Why are you being so silly? Why have you not got nowhere this by now?” But to realize that there are thousands of other people who are navigating these roads, it really led to exponential growth.

And so we did maybe three more in my apartment, got up to 40 people. And then it was just too many people. And so my background, I’m a publicist. And so I was like, “Okay, we got to find somewhere else.” And so we bounced around different co-working spaces. And the tickets were flying off the shelves. These tickets were maybe like $6. Very, very, very cheap. But the events had 300 people. We were at the height, I think, doing two to three events a month. And that’s when I finally said, “You know what? I think we deserve a conference.” Because I had just come back from a conference and I had been so excited. I had a whole itinerary. Really wanted to seize the day. And no one on that stage looked like me.

This was in 2017. So it was before, everyone was prioritizing diversity and people really had a lot of blind spots. And I was really, really annoyed. Like in my spirit, annoyed. And I realized that that anger/annoyance for me was a catalyst to do something about it. And so that was how CultureCon was born. My friends and I were using our phones instead of walkie-talkies. By the grace of God, Spike Lee agreed to be our first keynote speaker. And so we had the first CultureCon 200 people in New York City. And for me, I was like, “This is as big as it gets. This is as great as it gets. I can’t even believe it.”

But that night, I went and I checked the RSVPs and I realized we had 500 people that were on the waiting list. And that, I think, was the first time I was like, “Oh, this is a lot, lot bigger.” And so you fast-forward to last year, we had 10,000 people at CultureCon. And I just want to grow it and reach as many black and brown creatives and creative people as we can.

Justin James Lopez:
That’s amazing. So The Creative Collective, what role does that currently play in CultureCon?

Imani Ellis:
Absolutely. So Creative Collective, she’s the origin story. She’s the community. CultureCon would really be nothing without the community. And so Creative Collective is here to give you visibility, access to jobs and roles and careers you didn’t know existed in the creative space, access to how to pivot. If you want to go from one chapter in your life to the other chapter, Creative Collective is going to be your community and your inspiration and your visibility. CultureCon is, now let’s put it into work. So let’s give you the tangible tips, let’s give you some actionable next steps. Let’s give you the worksheets and the templates and the budget. And so they work very, very well together. And even though CultureCon has become the it girl and the big, big star, Creative Collective walked so that CultureCon could run.

Justin James Lopez:
There you go. Another quotable. Yeah, it’s really exciting to see the overall growth, but also the... And I know that you’re very humble in how you describe it, but it takes a really strategic mind to look at how these pieces fall together. When you think of, okay, this is something and the community is where you start. And then based on building a community, you start to shift into activating that community. And then you create this almost reciprocal relationship between those two so that, as one grows, the other one grows. As the impact grows, the impact of the other becomes more significant. And that’s something that I think any business could really implement for whatever cause that they’re using.

But how much of this was preemptive versus I’m just kind of figuring it out along the way. And I don’t know which one is more impressive, by the way. I don’t know which one of those is more impressive.

Imani Ellis:
I really appreciate the confidence, because when you look back, there’s such a strategy. I really was resisting this, Justin. This was not in the cards for me. I wanted to be a corporate lady forever, for all time. I really believe that everyone is not built or meant to be an entrepreneur. I think that we need a ton of people in institutions to help entrepreneurs. And so I always say, you have to go where the light is, and different chapters of your life, it’ll look differently, because I loved the impact I made in corporate. I was able to diversify our internship program. I was able to make sure that the talent was seen for who they were, and we weren’t pushing them in these boxes.

And so I see all that to say I thought that was my line of work, was to be in corporate forever and to really help drive comms and strategy for these huge organizations, and to make sure that the entrepreneurs were getting everything that they needed. And so CultureCon and Creative Collective kind of became this thorn in my side, to be honest, in the beginning. I was like, stay small, but it kept pulling me. And my weekends ended up being I couldn’t really go outside anymore. All of my weekends were just Creative Collective and CultureCon. And I remember being a little bit annoyed because there’s nothing better than a summer in New York City. But my summers became just working. I was just in my apartment working on these things.

And at the time, it really felt like something was pulling me, because I guess at any given point, I could have been like, “I don’t want to do this anymore.” But I think what was happening... I had a guest come up to me after CultureCon 2017 and she said, “This felt like church. This felt like home.” And I just kept seeing her face and I was like, we deserve these spaces. So I will say that I’ve had so many great mentorships. And the team, we were like Frankenstein. Like, “What about this? And what about that?” And we really all built the momentum together. I think, right now, there’s definitely so much strategy. But in the beginning, I think that scrappiness and that ‘we built it and we’re just like you’ version of us is what made it feel so refreshing. Because we were able to pivot and build really quickly, because I didn’t have to go ask permission to anyone.

It’s like, if we wanted to have a conversation about, again, wearing braids to work, we just did it. And I think that was very new at the time.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, I imagine very much so. When you think of transitioning from a more structured environment to this unstructured space, it first can initially feel like this outlet. And the more it becomes work, the more you feel like your outlet is being taken from you. But then what I’m hearing is that you had that moment where you realize, no, the obstacle is the way. If you’ve ever read that book. But it’s like, oh, the obstacle is the way. The thing that I think is actually blocking me is the thing that’s freeing me. And you build it out to the proportion that it is now.

I guess my question here is, what do you prefer? Because I have my own opinion based on how you’re describing it. But did you prefer the unstructured space where you’re just building as you go, or this more strategic space where you’re like, “No. Here are the pieces and here are where they fall, and this is our three-year plan”?

Imani Ellis:
I think I have to consider the stakes. The stakes are higher now, so there has to be a plan. And I think within the plan, we can take pit stops. But I think when it was just scrappy... Because no one was looking in the beginning. And that was fun. Because a lot of people are like CultureCon came out of nowhere, but it didn’t. It’s just we were small. And there was something about that because the stakes were so low that we could do a lot of experimenting. I think as you get bigger, there is, again, a responsibility attached to that vastness that I think one can’t say, “Oh, I just do what I want.” It’s like, “Well, now, you are in service to the community.”

When in the beginning, selfishly, I was in service to myself. I was like, “I want to build a community. This is for me.” And I’ve realized that CultureCon is not for me. This is actually for us. And so I would say I prefer the spontaneity of the beginning. I’m getting a lot of that back. I’m exiting this phase where... I don’t know. I wrote about this on social. But last year, I really stopped trusting myself. A lot of people were giving me advice on where to take it next and what to do. And I don’t know why, I just was like, “Okay, they know the way. You don’t know the way.” And I went in a whole circle just to be like, “Wait, Imani, Imani. Yes, take advisement from people, but it has to go through a filter of does this feel right? It can’t just be they say it, now you do it, because that’s not what’s gotten you here so far.”

So I’m finally, I think, feeling so much more comfortable today in terms of we are here for community, impact and resources. If it’s not going through that filter, then it’s probably not right for us. But last year, I was lost in the sauce. It didn’t look like it, but inside, I did not know where I wanted to take it next. And I think what I realized is I do need more spontaneity from the beginning, but I do need the structure from today given the responsibility that we have.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. So you found a bridge between those two Imani’s?

Imani Ellis:
Yeah, absolutely.

Justin James Lopez:
I wanted to talk about this specifically, and I’m glad that you brought it up. And thank you for the vulnerability there of... Because we don’t always have it figured out. But I think sometimes, the world expects us to, based on how the world has perceived us. Or what I like to say is, when we interact with people, they tend to take a snapshot of us. I’m a photographer, so this is my passion. So I always think about it this way. Like in photography, you take this snapshot. And I think the biggest fallacy that people make is that when they think of Imani, when they think of Justin, they think of the version that they took in that snapshot, and they’re holding it up to your face instead of looking at who you are today with all of the roller coaster that we go through in life.

So we can sometimes forget to just allow people to have human experiences, allow people to maybe not have the answer right now or provide perspective so that they can grow. So that’s really interesting that you say that. Was there ever a point in time... This is kind of a leading question, so I’m sorry. Was there ever a point in time where you felt like maybe this is too much, or maybe I do need to walk away, or maybe I did build something that I just can’t control?

Imani Ellis:
Oh my gosh, yes. The summer of 2019 was the hardest CultureCon summer for me because it was when we went from I think 700 people to 4,000 people, like a huge, huge jump. And again, we’re not VC-backed. I don’t have a blueprint for this. But I did have this calling that it should be bigger. And I remember that summer, I was sitting in my apartment not having a social life and just thinking about October. And my friend said, “Oh, did you hear this big conference? This big music festival is coming to New York in October.” And I said, “When in October?” And he goes, “October 13.” And my stomach just dropped because that was the day of CultureCon. And I just did not believe we could compete with this music festival.

And I wanted to just cancel CultureCon. CultureCon almost got canceled. I called my production manager. I said, “Let’s just cancel CultureCon.” And she goes, “You’ve already paid 50% for this venue. You’re not going to get it back. You’ve already paid me 50%. You’re not going to get it back. So you might just want to see it through.” And that was, I loved that you just said the obstacle is the way. I love that book. And I love the quote, “The only way out is through.” Because it does feel like you just want to sit in the valley and it just can’t get easier and you feel crazy and delusional. And it’s just kind of like, “Have I finally flown too close to the sun? I think I finally bit off more than I could chew.”

But I realized, I said, “I have already paid 50%, and so we’re just going to walk away?” And we kept going. And it was white knuckles. It was very, very hard. We did not have the infrastructure, but we ended up selling out CultureCon. And once we really did that, I think I realized that the community was behind us, the value was there. And I don’t know. It’s like, that was a true test. But that was my this is too hard, I can’t do this moment. Yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. But you saw it through, which I think is absolutely beautiful. So what’s next for CultureCon? Where are we going with CultureCon now?

Imani Ellis:
I’m really excited we’re doing CultureCon On Campus. So that is our college edition of CultureCon. I think about when I was in college and just wishing that there was more visibility in terms of what the options were. I was like, “I’m going to be an on-air personality or a talent agent.” And it wasn’t until I saw a publicist that I knew what a publicist was. I didn’t know that was a job. And so we’re going to go to the AUC in Atlanta. And we have voter registration and headshot and resume workshops and just meeting the college students where they are. So that’s super exciting in the spring.

And then we have CultureCon. We are returning to New York City where it all started, and it’s going to be in Brooklyn. And I think this year, we’re being very, very intentional about the curriculum. And so every single workshop, there’s going to be a promise attached to it. So if you attend this workshop, we promise you’re going to learn this. And so I just feel like, with the scale, we can’t have two days of just talking about fluff. We have to really empower our community with actionable items for what’s next. So I’m excited for that. We’re going to have some exciting collaborations coming up over the summer. And then I’m excited to rest, because I have now found that the best version of me shows up when she is not burnt out.

And so I’ll probably go on another creative residency this year so that I can show up as my full self at CultureCon.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. Creative residency. Talk to me about that.

Imani Ellis:
So last year, I was so burnt out. I left my corporate job to NBC for 10 years, and I went straight into being a full-time CEO. And I just felt like I had so much to prove. So we did a three city tour and launched CultureCon On Campus and CultureCon Studios and more speaking than I’ve ever done in my life. And I just was racing against myself. No one told me to do this, not a single person.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah.

Imani Ellis:
And I got to, I think, maybe May. And Justin, I was so exhausted that I couldn’t even rest. I was like delu-... Like, no, delirious. I was like delusional, delirious. I was so tired. And I just said, “If you keep this up, you’re not even going to make it to one year as a CEO. This is not sustainable.” And so I followed James Baldwin, he’s one of my favorite authors, and I planned a creative residency for myself. I went to Paris for a month and I played and I rested and I sat still until I just came back to myself. And I’m excited because I’m putting together a curriculum for my community for anyone who is burnt out or exhausted so that they can do their own creative residency in their home, abroad, just to come back to self. And I think it’s going to be a tradition that I do every year.

Justin James Lopez:
Thank you for that. You answered my... My follow-up was going to be like, are you creating a playbook? What’s going on with this? How do I get involved with a creative residency? I think, as a creative, everyone experiences this, and this is something that we don’t talk about as much is how do we deal with burnout and things like that. So that’s an amazing idea and I look forward to that coming out because I definitely will take advantage of that. Maybe mine will be in Japan, but I’m really excited.

But I wanted to just thank you again for the time and thank you for joining me on this show. I’m sure that there’s tons more that we can talk about. And maybe we’ll have you back as things continue to grow. But thank you again for joining us and I’m really excited to see what comes from your growth.

Imani Ellis:
Thank you so much, Justin. It’s always a pleasure. So great talking to you.